Abel Syarco has informed me that there might soon be a vacancy at the head of the Papal States.

I originally naturally assumed that Abel Syarco was the Pope, after all he is the head of the Papal States and that's what it says in his profile.

I later learned, that the pope is currently an NPC of Denis de Fecamp.

I think a NPC pope is quite a ridiculous idea - sorry folks who voted that idea into being some time ago, but I really think being pope should be a full time job. Now is the chance to remedy this state of affairs.

It would seem sensible to me to consider the following options:

1. Denis de Fecamp could move to the Vatican, become head of the Papal States and be a proper full-time pope, if he still wants the job and is supported by a majority of the Catholic nations.

or

2. There could be proper papal elections.

I would assume that anyone who wanted to be pope could present his candidacy and credentials in an appropriate time-frame of perhaps 2-4 weeks. Then

A. everyone could then vote on who would be pope in RP
B. Or every Catholic nation would vote, with one vote per nation,
C. or every Catholic nation could vote with one vote per ten knights (which option seems to me best suited to ensure that the pope would have the neccessary support of the Catholic monarchs)
D. or whichever other arrangement seems suitable.
(Anyone who does not like to write could merely send a note in RP with whom they vote for).

If there was no absolute majority for a candidate in the first round of voting, there could be a second ballot or runoff voting between those candidates who received most votes in the first round. The winner would then get to be pope and move to the Vatican to be pope and head of the Catholic Church.

If everyone else is happy with the current state of affairs and an NPC pope, then you can simply leave things as they are and have another secular, instead of religious leader of the Papal States after Abel Syarco. But if anyone else thinks that we can do better for the Catholic Church and this game here's the chance to change things.

Why does this discussion remember me off the Vatican Conference Room?^^

Having an NPC pope has advantages and disadvantages as well.

A big advantage of a NPC is that the "Pope" don't need to move to the Vatican, loosing his Fief in his own Nation (which means a big loss in silver even you can sell it it takes a long time until you have rebuild a new Fief to level 6). Ask James if you like to

In fact there is one thing I really disagree with you, making the Pope same "King of Papal States" is quite same being King somewhere else, so if you want the Pope as a "Full-Time-Jobber" you need to take a count (if from the Papal States or not is another question).

Next point, Denis already offerd to let his NPC die (thats another advantage within, a NPC can die anytime) if a majority wants so, by now no majority among the catholic Nations was found.

But the major point why we agreed on this is simply that no member of the vatican was willing to become Pope last election, and Denis unwilling to leave his Fief and Nation (which I is in my oppinion quite understandable) and that the Throne of the Papal State was in former times often taken by Usupers (like Snorre den Bloodlystne), which may also happen to any other pope being King of Vatican (specially if he wants to be "Full-Time-Pope", managing only that part without managing his Nation).

So I got to say I am quite satisfied with the way it is right now, plus I believe if there is someone really willing to change it in the way you mention Abel is a proper player doing so

I'm sorry Alrik, but I am going to stop with this game. I got into the highest selection of my students rowing club. Means 6 trainings a week. Besides that I got a girlfriend, study, commission to lead and a life to have.

So due to lack of time, I am stopping with the game. The spot will be free and I must admit, nobody within the Papal States looks interested, I post on the national forum, but no responds. So ... it's free for whomever wants it. The question is just... will this be another earthly leader or a new pope?

I dont like idea of one Catholic nation per 10 knights. In that case smaller nations wouldn't be able to participate voting which makes no really sense...


But I agree with one thing: We need active knight to be Pope...

Borna wrote:

QUOTE:
I dont like idea of one Catholic nation per 10 knights. In that case smaller nations wouldn't be able to participate voting which makes no really sense...

But I agree with one thing: We need active knight to be Pope...

Well, idea with minor corrections: every Catholic nation gets at least one vote. Larger nations with many knights get more votes, one per ten knights.

Giving a vote to the residents in the Papal States might also be considered, though if they have so far voiced no opinion at all on Abel Syarco's future abdication, they don't look like very active voters.

Jessica vom Greifenstein wrote

QUOTE:
A big advantage of a NPC is that the "Pope" don't need to move to the Vatican, loosing his Fief in his own Nation (which means a big loss in silver even you can sell it it takes a long time until you have rebuild a new Fief to level 6).

What is it - you lose 10 % or 20% of your buildings, if you move your fief? Shouldn't you be able to rebuild that in 2 months at most? Assuming that someone is really interested in becoming pope, I would not view this as an insurmountable obstacle. Immigrants do it all the time.

Jessica vom Greifenstein wrote

QUOTE:
In fact there is one thing I really disagree with you, making the Pope same "King of Papal States" is quite same being King somewhere else

True, in that point we totally disagree, in my opinion you can be king everywhere, except in the Papal States whose leader should be primarily head of the Catholic Church.

Jessica vom Greifenstein wrote

QUOTE:
But the major point why we agreed on this is simply that no member of the vatican was willing to become Pope last election

Simply throw the election and candidacy open to anyone and everyone. If the rulers of the Catholic nations vote on the candidates, they can ensure that no totally inexperienced or unsuitable candidate takes the position.

If the candidates would present their political goals in their candidacy as well as their person e. g.
- laissez faire, leave everyone to do their own thing
- or no secular ambitions, but religious duties, such as performing marriages for heads of states, funerals, etc.
- or a very active political life (and what direction those politics might take)

then the policy and the person (or RP character) could be voted on at the same time.

@Bella: You loose your Fief completly!

Ok, you will have a lot of silver by selling it, but your own Fief is lost since you cannot move it from one Nation to another.

About leading the Papal States, it also means leading a seperate Nation, my preferd way of leading a country is that the "King" has nothing to do since his chancellors are doing all the job, in fact I have never seen any Nation it really works at all.
That makes the leader of Papal States also a leader of a Nation, leaving smaller time for being Pope, since it is a big difference in a "normal" diplomatic letter and a papal edict.

And on last point: But no one did in past... and as I said, Denis is willing to let his NPC die if someone is found to become next pope, but here we go the clash in politics in between several catholic Nations.

By way, game would be very boring if all christian forces unite under one pope since the muslim and nordic factions are overall too weak at this moment to make up a serious thread towards a united catholic coalition.

@Abel: A girlfriend, hu? What about bringing her to the game?
Also every game needs clickers, so I hope you will stay ingame, even without being in a high position, the game would loose a great player at all

Forgive me if I speak out of turn. I'm just a crusader in KH. But I do have some concerns.

Will the Pope rule here in KH as he did in real life?

A quote from Wikipedia

QUOTE:
Papal bulls, interdict, and excommunication (or the threat thereof) have been used many times to increase papal power. The Bull Laudabiliter in 1155 authorized Henry II of England to invade Ireland. In 1207, Innocent III placed England under interdict until King John made his kingdom a fiefdom to the Pope, complete with yearly tribute, saying, "we offer and freely yield...to our lord Pope Innocent III and his catholic successors, the whole kingdom of England and the whole kingdom of Ireland with all their rights and appurtenences for the remission of our sins".[108] The Bull Inter caetera in 1493 led to the Treaty of Tordesillas in 1494, which divided the world into areas of Spanish and Portuguese rule. The Bull Regnans in Excelsis in 1570 excommunicated Elizabeth I of England and declared that all her subjects were released from all allegiance to her. The Bull Inter Gravissimas in 1582 established the Gregorian Calendar.[109]

I'm kind of worried about something like this happening in game as RP. And if it does happen, what then? Does the pope excommunicate and declare crusades on whoever does not submit to the absolute authority of the Pope (King) in KH?

Let's consider this for a moment ...
The Prince of Antioch limits our power by declaring us defenders of jerusalem, we do not declare war on anyone for our own personal reasons. We only serve our duty as defenders of jerusalem, but the Papal State will not be limited as we are. And unlike Antioch, the Papal State will have the authority to call for crusade, have the power to excommunicate, divide up free land between nations, and other such things.

No offense to anyone here, but if you are going to give 1 vote per 10 knights to every catholic nation, then this can and will become a matter of politics ... and politics can get ugly. I'm just saying to give it some consideration.

I think it's a dream to think that the Pope only is a spiritual leader of all catholic nations.

Have a look in the history of the middle age (until today). The pope allways was a political leader too. Some times a strong leader - some times a weak leader. Why should this be handled different from reality in this game?

It's dream too to think the pope will be neutral to conflicts between (Christian/Catholic nations). I play the german KH-Version too and I can say there is more fun to have a political and spiritual pope.

Some words to the election of an pope. This could be done one time. But first order for a new pope has to be to assign Cardinals in all Catholic nations. The Cardinals could be named by the rulers of this nations.

If the pope dies this Cardinals have to come together for conklave and elect an new pope.

My opinion: If an election then an political pope (Vatican) and in time a spiritual leader of the Catholic nations.

If no knight is interested to become pope... let it be for the moment. In history we had times without any pope and times with up to three popes simultaneous.

Clearly I'm completely spoiled from RH, where the whole Papal thing seems to work excellently, there just was a papal election I much admired and there are plenty of candidates who could do the job or can act as competent stand-ins, if the pope is for some reason unavailable.

Jessica vom Greifenstein wrote:

QUOTE:
@Bella: You loose your Fief completly!

Oops, yes it seems I confused moving the fief within one nation only and selling the fief for merely 50 % of it's value.

Jessica vom Greifenstein wrote:

QUOTE:
Denis is willing to let his NPC die if someone is found to become next pope

That does seem an unexpected sticking point, no candidates springing up yet, if no one is willing to be a real pope in the Vatican, then an NPC pope would indeed be better than nothing at all.

Redrick Fieraas wrote:

QUOTE:
Will the Pope rule here in KH as he did in real life?

The influence of the Church in medieval times varied widely. The Church did of course have some military might, in the form of knightly orders. But the Church's authority was based largely on the medieval people's fear of hellfire and damnation - strong while in the presence of some ecclesiastical authority, fading rapidly as soon as that authority was out of sight.

Basically every medieval monarch and nobles did as they pleased – whatever they could get away with - and any pope would need much diplomatic skill to wield any influence on the independent monarchs.
See e. g. Peace and Truce of God, which had to be renewed every few years because everyone constantly broke it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_and_Truce_of_God

Yes, excommunications were a frequent fact of medieval life, but whole nations often lived on for many years or decades under interdict, until some compromise could be found.

As far as I can see, on RH while many lines of war are drawn by religion, the Catholics also manage to get in quite a few happy squabbles amongst themselves.

Hugh of Montfort

QUOTE:
Some words to the election of an pope. This could be done one time. But first order for a new pope has to be to assign Cardinals in all Catholic nations.

Yes, that's the way it was done on RH. But I assumed, that if KH has the greatest difficulty to find as much as a single papal candidate, it would be quite impossible to find a dozen active RP writers who want to be cardinals.

In the end the whole thing is just a suggestion, any means of voting are totally up for debate and if the majority of the players does not want a pope in the Vatican, then that is a vote, too and things will continue on the way they have been with a king instead of a pope for the Papal states.

Okay. Sounds like fun.