QUOTE:
The first mention of the people inhabiting present-day Estonia is by the Roman historian Tacitus, who in his book Germania (ca. AD 98) describes the Aesti tribe.

A more troubled and war-ridden middle Iron Age followed with external dangers coming both from the Baltic tribes, who attacked across the southern land border, and from overseas. Several Scandinavian sagas refer to retaliatory campaigns against Estonia. Estonian pirates conducted similar raids against the Vikings. The "pagan raiders" who sacked the Swedish town of Sigtuna during the early Middle Ages, in 1187, were Estonians.

In the 1st centuries AD, political and administrative subdivisions began to emerge in Estonia. Nearly all provinces had at least one fortress. The defense of the local area was directed by the highest official, the king or elder. By the 13th century the following major lands had developed in Estonia: Revala, Harjumaa, Saaremaa, Hiiumaa, Läänemaa, Alempois, Sakala, Ugandi, Jogentagana, Soopoolitse, Vaiga, Mõhu, Nurmekund, Järvamaa and Virumaa.

It's not that Estonia appear suddenly in the 13th century or a migrating people settle there by that time. We are talking about an ancient people living in that area. If we talk about historical correctness, Serbia also should not be here. As for historical importance, what great deeds had Finland for example, except being the home of Santa?

Dunno who told you that "maybe the admins wont allow this kid of change", but as from the first players who sign the petition to introduce Serbia in the game, I can tell you there isn't such a thing. Croatia the same, was introduced later in the game.

Gather all Estonian players, individually message the Admins (Hoern and Eddard), make a petition only for collecting signatures in Off-Topic "We want Estonia in the game", sign it as "Estonian player" and add "I have premium" if it's the case.
I'm telling you, if you gather a few premium Estonian players, you could convince Hoern to introduce Estonia in the game, because is nothing wrong, you was there all the time, from pre-historical times.
Also it's possible because the game could not have all the existent nations at the start, because of the map limitation.
Make as much lobby as you can and in the end, if there will be enough Estonian players in the game supporting the petition, you'll have Estonia in the game.
The Council of Knights decision is only a recommendation, if they are not willing to give it to you, it doesn't matter. You must convince Hoern anyway in the end, he is the owner of the game, not only Admin and he is the one who decide in such important matters.

Your case is similar with Croatia, when a german nation was eliminated to make room for them. We have four Russian nation (Novgorod, Kiev, Rostov and Smolensk), hardly they could be more important than a german nation at that time.

Maybe they can remove Mordvins or Kasan but not the Novgorod because of the people that still want to play in that nation and its position

What players, Ljudislav? All the active players are Estonian, stop judging by your in-game allies and interests.
It's not for you to decide anyway.

All your letters give my so much thoughts and ideas that I dont know where to guide them, but first of all I dont know if I can get so much players in here.
And James I must admit you certainly done your homework cuz I know all those things only cuz I'm interested in mainly estonian history, but I dont know very much about sticking it to the man.. kinda thing.

Ljudislav wrote:

QUOTE:
Maybe they can remove Mordvins or Kasan but not the Novgorod because of the people that still want to play in that nation and its position :)

I disagree with removing the Mordvins and Kasan from the game simply because both of their castles are so far away from the place where Estonia and Novgorod were located, so removing them makes no sense.

I still don't agree with the appearance of Estonia. I'm not really interested about when Estonians appeared as a people, but when they appeared as a faction and whether that is the 13'th century or the 20'th century makes no difference to me because we're in the 11'th century now.

So my answer to the petition is still no.

If however the Council will vote by majority the introduction of Estonia than I will accept it, but only by somehow finding room for the Estonian castle. As I see it, the only ways to perhaps make room for Estonia is:

1. either by placing their castle in one of these provinces: Cudskoje (shire 216), Livland (shire 218) or Pskow (shire 217). That would require Lithuania's permission because those are their provinces and it would also mean Lithuania would have to be given 3 other provinces in compensation for losing those;

2. or by moving Novgorod to let's say where Tver (shire 274) is now located, which would mean that Rostov would also have to be moved and it could perhaps be moved to where Yoshkar-Ola (shire 293) and/or Morki (shire 278) are now located and finally by also moving Kasan's castle to perhaps where Petrovsk (shire 335) is now located. Than the Estonian castle could be placed where Novgorod is now.

But doing all that means changing much of the Eastern map and I'm not sure the mods will be willing to do that. Not to mention that you'd have to ask Rostov if they want to be moved as well.

It's too complicated in my opinion and there would be simply too many castles on a square inch.

Ljudislav wrote:

QUOTE:
I'll only support adding a new nation of Estonia with the castle in 217 but the name of the shire should be swapped with 215 shire.

217 Pskow->Estland
215 Estland->Pskow

This would only give the Baltic region a more unique position and RP value.

Novgorod in other hand had a more significant role in history and I would never settle for it to be changed in to faction not even historically accurate for this time frame...

Ljudislav

Thats why this is the best option if you ask me...

James mentioned Serbia as being premature introduced in the game, may I remind him that we were introduced as Serbian Kingdom of Duklja firstly and in RP when freeing all of the Serbian lands introduced Serbian Kingdom now Empire...

Estonia should go trough the same process as we did, it will benefit the RP

@Alar I: You think too much about "way 2" think more on "way 1" cuz getting a castle to Cudskoje isn't such a problem cuz we already talked with Lithuania about this but our army doesnt simply have enough time to take Cudskoje yet.
Oh and as James already metioned it:

QUOTE:
It's not that Estonia appear suddenly in the 13th century or a migrating people settle there by that time. We are talking about an ancient people living in that area.

I understand Oru, but as I said before I'm not really interested in when the Estonians appeared as a people, but when they emerged as a faction in its own sense.

In fact, there were many peoples in that period that had already existed for centuries but didn't have a kingdom of their own. So we cannot make this decision based solely on this criteria.

However, if Lithuania agrees, if you agree and if the Council decides by majority of votes to allow the emergence of your castle, than so be it.

I'm not a councilor, but I'll share my opinion.

Although Novgorod is an important Russian principality, we make our own course of history here. Find historical data about the migration of Estonians and such, to back your future actions, and start RP-ing the rise of Estonian nobles. After you reach a good foot-hold into bringing Estonian knights and RP-ers that get attention of the world, then you will have a legitimate claim to get your nation.
This way, you just come and say - I'm Estonian and became king of Novgorod, I want Estonia.
Back it up a bit with RP, that's all

Our knowledge of history is distorted by politics and religion. Estonians definitely lived there in KH times, but they were suppressed by other states, occupied by Livonian order, suffered from viking raids, later Moskow, Sweden and so on.. It was not in history writers interest to show estonians in very bright light to justify what they have done, so, probably, we can forgive them that they don't have much written history to confirm their demands. We can change that in KH and let them establish their state. Such people existed in given times and we aren't repeating history, so with proper RP, they should have right to establish their state.

You consider what is Russian looking from nowadays.. Probably, that's why in official politicized history Novgorod is considered as very important nation, while estonians as tribe, which hardly existed Why do we have there Kiev and Smolensk, if they were just duchies of Grand Duchy of Lithuania?

But I don't agree with adding new castle, as this place is overcrowded already. Prussia doesn't have where to expand without facing other castles. Smolensk was added in quite strange place some time ago (it's funny, because we have two Smolensk shires (285, 287) and nation of Smolensk with castle in 309) It's good that we don't have enough players for middle-east europe, otherwise we would have unadequately serious problems with borders. Look at alraedy mentioned Prussia and Novgorod. Lithuanian shires are already next to Novgorod castle, so where should expand all nations if another castle would be added.