Anne wrote:

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Deaglan Artavasdus wrote:

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I have always said it would be better if the Patriarch of Antioch were a PC, but that would require someone willing to play him, and the evidence so far is that (with the exception of the Pope) there is almost no interest amongst players to pursue religious leadership... The result of preventing (independent) religious leader NPCs would be to stop even the small amount of religious RP that is now occurring.

How a NPC could be independent? I didn't read everything, because I think that the debate is losing of interest going too much in details, but it's not the will of the player who dictate what the NPC will do?

An NPC is independent if he makes independent decisions about things within his area of responsibility.

For example, the religious leader NPCs Macarias and St. John Bennett make independent decisions about their areas of responsibility within the church.

Of course the players' wills determines everything: PCs are not independent of their players and NPCs are not independent of their players. However, both PCs and NPCs are role played as people, who are creations of the players' imagination, created with the appearance of independent will.

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I think that Hoern statement is very clear about this:

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But if you take a look to the rules:
It has to be clear that the NPC is no character at the game - it is a third person.

Hoern's full statement is:

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First: NPCs are allowed. They are needed.

But if you take a look to the rules:
It has to be clear that the NPC is no character at the game - it is a third person. The NPC is not allowed to have a position of a king, chancellor, count. This positions are for players only.
The NPC can be a religious leader - but the importance of this comes from the other players or nations who give him credit.

So - you can play as much NPCs as you want - but they are only of importance if the other players want them to have. Otherwise, the NPC is not more than a messenger or an observer.

Hoern says in particular that "The NPC can be a religious leader".

Leaders lead, they are the "deciders" (as someone said recently), the people who make decisions based on their independent will.

Both Macarias and St Thomas Bennett are religious leaders making decisions about their respective religious areas of responsibility.

For example, when a letter concerning the Church was sent by Abel Syarco to King Gregory I, King Gregory (not being a churchman) quite properly passed it to St Thomas Bennett, who made an independent decision.

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St. Thomas Bennett, Archbishop of Westminster receive Abel Syarco letter from Gregory, being a matter of Church it is for the Church and not for the King to decide.

Notice that the player here has said "it is not for the King to decide", and the post continues, with St Thomas Bennett (quite properly) giving his response, coming from his "independent" will as a character. St Thomas does not ask the King what to do, instead he gives his own response.

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I don't know why you insist, Deaglan Artavasdus; you are entitled to play one character by the game rules and the NPC's you create should stay as intended in the entourage of your playing character.

At no point does Hoern say anything about the entourage; as far as I can tell it is only James who says that. There are plenty of valid NPCs who are not in an entourage, including God and various religious leaders. I agree that there is a important subclass of NPCs who are in the entourages of Kings, but not all NPCs are in entourages.

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That's the way I see things: NPC's represent your PC (playing character) within the game and in any case you could not pretend those NPC's have a will of their own interacting with other players characters, since it's one will, the will of the player behind all the characters you create.

Of course you could pretend in RP that one (or more) NPC's of yours being in disagreement with your PC, in the same way James pretend that he speaks with God, but this is only for the sake of RP, not to use named NPC's against other players characters.
I don't want to see an inflation of God NPC's playing the game instead of your knights.

At one of the times this was raised previously there was a proposal that players with religious leader NPCs should be banned from the game, because (it was alleged) they were cheating.

Now, these players were not banned, since they were not (and are not) cheating, but instead doing something permitted and even encouraged by Hoern.

Hey, enough is enough!
Deaglan Artavasdus, you cannot indefinitely ignore Admins. and RP mods statements, using false arguments and partially quotes: St. John Bennett was the voice of my PC character, a NPC in the entourage of my knight, while you use your NPC Macarias to attack characters of other players, pretending there isn't any connection between your NPC and your PC.

I never pretending my NPC St. John Bennett have a voice of it's own, because it was me, the person using to play the game as king Gregory, who put the words in my NPC mouth.
It is the player behind his knight and his NPC's putting all of them in action according to his interests, it is one will, the will of the player who create the characters.

I don't recall my NPC St. John Bennett starting a synod to mob other players characters, along with other actions conveniently using NPC's instead of your knight. That kind of interaction is cheating!
It was explained to you and ignoring that don't change the things.

Yes, God it's a NPC in my knight entourage: I use to pray (talk) to Him and occasionally speak with Him directly or with His angels. As long as it stays like that, there isn't any problem, it help me to describe the environment of my knight.

What if my God NPC shows up telling your character: I decide James to be my deputy on earth. He will speak in My Name from now on. Bow before him and kiss his hand, because James it's a saint.
C'mon, "God" have a will of it's own, you cannot accuse Him that He favor my knight! Or do you want to imply that I manipulate God in my favor? If you don't bow before saint James once "God" Himself told you to do so, you're not a good christian and you should be excommunicated.

Bow before me as "God" says and stop this nonsense talking or saint James will ban you forever from Christian community as God banned Cain and his kind from His people!!
You are killing me!!

QUOTE:
Then the Lord said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?"
"I know not," he replied. "Am I my brother's keeper?"
10. Then He said, "What have you done? Your brother's blood cries out to Me from the ground!
11. So now you are cursed from the ground that opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood you have shed.
12. If you work the land, it will never again give you its yield. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth."

James wrote:

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Hey, enough is enough!
Deaglan Artavasdus, you cannot indefinitely ignore Admins. and RP mods statements, using false arguments and partially quotes

I have quoted what Hoern said on this topic, in full.

You are one of several people who quoted part of what he said, and only that part of the quote which you think supports your case. In fact it does not, the matter was dealt with previously and it was decided that your argument in incorrect. The players with NPCs were allowed to continue with them, without being banned for cheating.

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St. John Bennett was the voice of my PC character, a NPC in the entourage of my knight, while you use your NPC Macarias to attack characters of other players, pretending there isn't any connection between your NPC and your PC.

My PC and my NPCs are independent people.

The only connection between them is that I, the player, created them all. I have never pretended that this isn't the case - why would I?

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I never pretending my NPC St. John Bennett have a voice of it's own, [b]because it was me, the person using to play the game as king Gregory, who put the words in my NPC mouth.

In that case, why say it's not King Gregory's decision to make - why didn't Gregory make the decision?

And: your PC doesn't really have a voice of his own either: it is you, the player, who puts words into the mouth of both Greg and Jim...

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It is the player behind his knight and his NPC's putting all of them in action according to his interests, it is one will, the will of the player who create the characters.[/b]

I have created several characters, one of them my PC and the others my NPCs, each of whom is a (created) person, and each of whom has a will of his own (within the creation). That will is distinct from my will as a player.

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I don't recall my NPC St. John Bennett starting a synod to mob other players characters, along with other actions conveniently using NPC's instead of your knight. That kind of interaction is cheating!
It was explained to you and ignoring that don't change the things.

Hoern correctly said the effect of actions of NPCs, such as Sergios II, is entirely a function of whether players (and their PCs) take notice or not. The actions of Sergios II were effective because he was persuasive and indeed persuaded a number of players (and their PCs) to follow his line. That is permitted and within the rules.

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Yes, God it's a NPC in my knight entourage: I use to pray (talk) to Him and occasionally speak with Him directly or with His angels. As long as it stays like that, there isn't any problem, it help me to describe the environment of my knight.

I think you mean that God is in your environment, not in your entourage, which is a collection of subordinate people who follow you around. God doesn't follow: he's everywhere, and he's not subordinate.

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What if my God NPC shows up telling your character: I decide James to be my deputy on earth. He will speak in My Name from now on. Bow before him and kiss his hand, because James it's a saint.
C'mon, "God" have a will of it's own, you cannot accuse Him that He favor my knight! Or do you want to imply that I manipulate God in my favor? If you don't bow before saint James once "God" Himself told you to do so, you're not a good christian and you should be excommunicated.

Bow before me as "God" says and stop this nonsense talking or saint James will ban you forever from Christian community as God banned Cain and his kind from His people!!

Well if you want to find out what I shall do then I suggest you try it, providing you can do so without "God-modding" (pun intended) my PC or my NPCs.

Assuming "God-modding" can be avoided and the other rules for RP obeyed, I don't see that there is a fundamental problem here.

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You are killing me!!

QUOTE:
Then the Lord said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?"
"I know not," he replied. "Am I my brother's keeper?"
10. Then He said, "What have you done? Your brother's blood cries out to Me from the ground!
11. So now you are cursed from the ground that opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood you have shed.
12. If you work the land, it will never again give you its yield. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth."

Deaglan Artavasdus wrote:

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The players with NPCs were allowed to continue with them, without being banned for cheating.

The players using NPC's as PC (Playing Characters) was not banned in the way Borna swear in the tavern to RP mods and was not banned. Hoern statement was very clear and as long as you ignore it, you are breaking the game rules
"But if you take a look to the rules:
It has to be clear that the NPC is no character at the game - it is a third person."
I quote what part I think it's relevant and you keep ignore it, using your NPC for cheating.

Deaglan Artavasdus wrote:

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My PC and my NPCs are independent people.

You're sick, my friend. Go find a doctor.

Deaglan Artavasdus wrote:

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And: your PC doesn't really have a voice of his own either: it is you, the player, who puts words into the mouth of both Greg and Jim...

But of course he don't have a voice of his own. Your characters use to speak with you, Jim?

Deaglan Artavasdus wrote:

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I have created several characters, one of them my PC and the others my NPCs, each of whom is a (created) person, and each of whom has a will of his own (within the creation). That will is distinct from my will as a player.

The will of your characters are distinct of your will as player? How come that, Jim? They refuse to obey you? This is revolting! You have lost the control over your characters and everything is there in your mind!
Forget about doctor, I don't think you could be saved anymore.

Deaglan Artavasdus wrote:

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Hoern correctly said the effect of actions of NPCs, such as Sergios II, is entirely a function of whether players (and their PCs) take notice or not. The actions of Sergios II were effective because he was persuasive and indeed persuaded a number of players (and their PCs) to follow his line. That is permitted and within the rules.

You tell if Hoern is correct now.. I don't think that Hoern needs your approval for his statements and you ignore the part where "It has to be clear that the NPC is no character at the game - it is a third person" using your NPC as Playing Character and interacting with other players characters in a cheating way!


Deaglan Artavasdus wrote:

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I think you mean that God is in your environment, not in your entourage, which is a collection of subordinate people who follow you around. God doesn't follow: he's everywhere, and he's not subordinate.

Possible God do as you says, but my NPC God do whatever I want, he is subordinate to my will and he is there where I put him to be (well, I didn't lose the control over my characters yet!). Pretending it's God and not my NPC is alright as long as he stays as my NPC and don't interact with other players characters as GOD in a cheating way.

Hey, Jim, this is GOD who is speaking to you: stop pretending you're My loyal servant!
You only say what the Emperor wants you to say and you only do what the Emperor want you to do, he is your Playing Character. You can fool people, but you cannot fool Me, who can see in your heart.

Play or as Deaglan Artavasdus, Byzantine Emperor or as devoted church servant Macarias, you can't be both. It was told to you:

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"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Byzantine Emperor."

In case of mental condition often spuriously called "split personality", where within the same body there exists more than one distinct personality, I suggest you to consult a doctor.

Hello,

the statement made by Hoern seems pretty clear to me:

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It has to be clear that the NPC is no character at the game - it is a third person. The NPC is not allowed to have a position of a king, chancellor, count. This positions are for players only.

Hoern says that the NPC is not a character at the game and then he explains the consequences of this statement: "The NPC is not allowed to have a position of a king, chancellor, count." - King, chancellor and count are all positions implemented in the game mechanics. NPCs, who are not represented in the game mechanics but only exist in roleplay, cannot hold those positions.
To put it differently: Roleplay has to take place within the limits that are set by the game mechanics. Roleplay cannot overrule game mechanics.
This is all Hoern stated regarding restrictions on NPCs. This paragraph does not state that NPCs may not be important characters, and it does not state anything regarding one´s entourage.

The next paragraphs tell us about what NPCs can be and can do:

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The NPC can be a religious leader - but the importance of this comes from the other players or nations who give him credit.

So - you can play as much NPCs as you want - but they are only of importance if the other players want them to have. Otherwise, the NPC is not more than a messenger or an observer.

The restriction for NPCs in roleplay is - nonexistent. Hoern explicitly states that NPCs can be religious leaders, which had been the matter in dispute.
But, as Hoern points out, if a character becomes as important as the player wants him to be, does not just depend on the player´s claims: "The importance of this comes from the other players or nations who give him credit." - If nobody shares the player´s idea that his NPC is a messianic figure then his appearance, planned as a triumph can quickly turn into a comedy.

James wrote:

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possibly a NPC have a character, but I'm not playing with him, claiming that he is independent of my playing character, the knight. He is a helper, serving his purpose in the benefit of my knight.

This is the wrong idea regarding the use of NPCs. The NPC does not serve the benefit of the knight. It does serve the benefit of the story you want to tell.
Depending on the story a NPC might be a friend, a servant, a one-time encounter, an adversary or the mortal enemy of your knight.

That both the PC and the NPC stem from the same mind does not make one the servant of the other. Gandalf and Saruman came from the same mind and they did not get along very well. Neither did Joffrey Baratheon and Eddard Stark - or Tom and Jerry.
To imagine two fictional characters in conflict does not require a split mind. A standard brain is quite capable of doing so.

James wrote:

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Deaglan Artavasdus wrote:

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The players with NPCs were allowed to continue with them, without being banned for cheating.

The players using NPC's as PC (Playing Characters) was not banned in the way Borna swear in the tavern to RP mods and was not banned.

Borna apologised and stopped what he was doing. That is the reason he was not banned even though he did something that was wrong.

I am not doing anything wrong; I am not going to stop and I am not going to apologise. The reason I have not been banned is that I have not done anything wrong, a completely different case to Borna.

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Hoern statement was very clear and as long as you ignore it, you are breaking the game rules
"But if you take a look to the rules:
It has to be clear that the NPC is no character at the game - it is a third person."
I quote what part I think it's relevant and you keep ignore it, using your NPC for cheating.

The rest of Hoern's statement explains this sentence.

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Deaglan Artavasdus wrote:

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My PC and my NPCs are independent people.

You're sick, my friend. Go find a doctor.

Again, you quote a part of what I have said, in order to suggest I have a mental illness.

In this discussion I have consistently quote your full statement in my response. It does not help your case that you have consistently not done the same.

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Deaglan Artavasdus wrote:

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And: your PC doesn't really have a voice of his own either: it is you, the player, who puts words into the mouth of both Greg and Jim...

But of course he don't have a voice of his own. Your characters use to speak with you, Jim?

If you had quoted what I said between the two statements you did quote, then my answer would be clear.

But I am glad that you agree that your PCs don't have any special voice of their own. It follows that they are exactly like your NPCs (and mine of course) in this respect.

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Deaglan Artavasdus wrote:

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I have created several characters, one of them my PC and the others my NPCs, each of whom is a (created) person, and each of whom has a will of his own (within the creation). That will is distinct from my will as a player.

The will of your characters are distinct of your will as player? How come that, Jim? They refuse to obey you? This is revolting! You have lost the control over your characters and everything is there in your mind!
Forget about doctor, I don't think you could be saved anymore.

Most novelists talk of their creations in this way. It is part of what distinguishes a good creative writer: his characters "take on a life of their own". I don't claim to be a good creative writer, but I do hope that someday you experience this effect.

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Deaglan Artavasdus wrote:

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Hoern correctly said the effect of actions of NPCs, such as Sergios II, is entirely a function of whether players (and their PCs) take notice or not. The actions of Sergios II were effective because he was persuasive and indeed persuaded a number of players (and their PCs) to follow his line. That is permitted and within the rules.

You tell if Hoern is correct now.. I don't think that Hoern needs your approval for his statements and you ignore the part where "It has to be clear that the NPC is no character at the game - it is a third person" using your NPC as Playing Character and interacting with other players characters in a cheating way!

Hoern is not infallible (neither am I, of course). For example, several years ago I discovered a bug that allowed an excessive number of counts to be appointed (this was before the rule was changed, of course). Hoern initially said that there was no bug, which was an incorrect statement. I then demonstrated the bug, and thus demonstrated that Hoern's statement was incorrect. Hoern agreed and fixed the bug.

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Deaglan Artavasdus wrote:

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I think you mean that God is in your environment, not in your entourage, which is a collection of subordinate people who follow you around. God doesn't follow: he's everywhere, and he's not subordinate.

Possible God do as you says, but my NPC God do whatever I want, he is subordinate to my will and he is there where I put him to be (well, I didn't lose the control over my characters yet!). Pretending it's God and not my NPC is alright as long as he stays as my NPC and don't interact with other players characters as GOD in a cheating way.

I agree that your portrayal of God is subordinate to the will of you, the player.

I was responding to what you actually wrote:

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Yes, God it's a NPC in my knight entourage: I use to pray (talk) to Him and occasionally speak with Him directly or with His angels.

and what I wrote was slightly slack. Let my try again: I think you mean that God is in your Knight's environment, not in your Knight's entourage, which is a collection of subordinate people who follow your Knight around. God doesn't follow your Knight: he's everywhere, and he's not subordinate to your Knight.

James wrote:

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[color=#FF0000][b]Hey, Jim, this is GOD who is speaking to you: stop pretending you're My loyal servant!
You only say what the Emperor wants you to say and you only do what the Emperor want you to do, he is your Playing Character. You can fool people, but you cannot fool Me, who can see in your heart.

Jack - my characters say what I, the player, write them as having said. It is I, the player, who writes their speech. I, the player, am not the Roman Emperor, and the Roman Emperor does not decide what I write.

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Play or as Deaglan Artavasdus, Byzantine Emperor or as devoted church servant Macarias, you can't be both. It was told to you:

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"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Byzantine Emperor."

This is irrelevant. No-one is serving any masters; we are just writing stories.

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In case of mental condition often spuriously called "split personality", where within the same body there exists more than one distinct personality, I suggest you to consult a doctor.[/b][/color]

Dissociative identity disorder is quite rare and in fact whether it exists at all is somewhat controversial. It is hardly an appropriate topic for making jokes about.

This is ROLE-PLAY, not novel. The game allows you one knight = one Playing Character, so cut the crap, will you?
We are not writing novels to create countless characters, but play a game as a knight in a medieval era, remember? This is the purpose of the game!
The story and the role of the knight is wanted, not your fictional inventions in order to take an unfair advantage in the game.
Take this and read, it's there in the board for everybody to see:

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The Knights (!!! RolePlay !!!)
... stories about the life of knights

It's The Knights, not whatever fictional characters you want to create and it's ROLE-PLAY, not novel!
The NPC's are third persons, not first person Playing Character, if you both know to read!

As long as it stays within your elaborate stories, it doesn't concern me, but try one of your cheating NPC's you are playing with instead of your knight on my character!!

There is no way a NPC could compete with a PC knight character and I will not allow that kind of cheating, that's what I'm saying.
A NPC it's a third person, in no way is meant to be played and interact with other characters other than representing the will of the player in serving his Playing Character, the knight.

James wrote:

QUOTE:
This is ROLE-PLAY, not novel. The game allows you one knight = one Playing Character, so cut the crap, will you?
We are not writing novels to create countless characters, but play a game as a knight in a medieval era, remember? This is the purpose of the game!
The story and the role of the knight is wanted, not your fictional inventions in order to take an unfair advantage in the game.
Take this and read, it's there in the board for everybody to see:

QUOTE:
The Knights (!!! RolePlay !!!)
... stories about the life of knights

It's The Knights, not whatever fictional characters you want to create and it's ROLE-PLAY, not novel!
The NPC's are third persons, not first person Playing Character, if you both know to read!

As long as it stays within your elaborate stories, it doesn't concern me, but try one of your cheating NPC's you are playing with instead of your knight on my character!!

There is no way a NPC could compete with a PC knight character and I will not allow that kind of cheating, that's what I'm saying.
A NPC it's a third person, in no way is meant to be played and interact with other characters other than representing the will of the player in serving his Playing Character, the knight.

The purpose of the game---like any game---is to have fun!

I like writing, I suspect the player of Misopogon does too; I know the player of Seighin Cumhaill does, in fact her player stopped playing games (all others first and latterly KH) in order to focus on writing. Perhaps den Uxi will bring back the writing competition?

Writing stories is allowed and encouraged: the RP board is for "stories"... "about the life of Knights", "about the Nations", and "about the greatest events".

I'm not cheating, I'm allowed to write stories about my NPCs. In fact, one can even play them in some sense, since Hoern said:

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So - you can play as much NPCs as you want - but they are only of importance if the other players want them to have.

Thank you for playing!