Borna wrote:

QUOTE:
Great idea, too bad it wont work since Papacy and Pope have nothing to offer back...

A really superior moral position, if you participate in a war the Pope called for?

Another power in the game who might hopefully take a neutral stance between quarreling Catholics and act as a mediator?

I believe this matter is more about who the catholic nations want as pope . Do they want an NPC or will they support the ruler of the Papal States as their true pope .

EDIT : I'll be honest , in my first mails I exchanged with Abel I believed that he was actually the pope .

Étienne de Congost wrote:

QUOTE:
I believe this matter is more about who the catholic nations want as pope . Do they want an NPC or will they support the ruler of the Papal States as their true pope .

I'd assume that the level of support a pope might expect from the Catholic nations would also be up for negotiation which each nation.

Basically I think the pope might expect some basic respect to his face in RP - without some respect for the office you can't really RP a Catholic - or you should at least be aware that if you disrespect the pope as a Catholic you are being baaaad.

QUOTE:
Catechism of the Catholic Church / Apostles' Creed
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints

Unless you refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of the pope in the first place.

So generally respect for the pope to his face from Catholics and support for the pope's policies, whenever it does not inconvenience a nation to do so. Support for papal policies that run counter to a nation's interests and previous policies probably not, unless the pope managed to be extremely convincing.

But deciding what to do would be up to the new pope and the Catholic rulers.

Borna, I "forgive" you, because your char is young, but under Gregory, Vatican was not a military power, still the christian nations (catholic and orthodox) was united in supporting the church.
The crusade against the most powerful alliance nations of that times, the Vikings is the evidence. Ask Smelgar, Eastern Roman Empire send an army in support who reach Baltic Sea shores, ask Denis and Jessica, their fathers (uncle in Denis' case, sorry) was leading the crusaders forces, ask Alar who use to be a witness eye of the events and had a conflict with Gregory, ask Lithuanians.

Alright, the crusade was defeated by the powerful Vikings and the pope accused by the Synod in Constantinople the sin of fighting with the crusaders' armies, but that's not the point. The point is the christian nations rally behind the cross and the pope.

As Bella says, it's for the pope to not make outrageous demands, to not command, but work diligently in order to get the support of christian nations. Appointing Cardinals, having a friendly attitude towards orthodox to avoid the schism, participating in RP with the occasions of marriages or coronation festivities could be the key.

What use if Vatican have a big army and threaten everybody to do as the pope command? It's not realistic and the game won't have any benefit on that. Excommunications are extreme measures, when all the diplomacy fails and there is no other way to deal with cases like constant aggression towards christian nations or public insults.

The nations use the papal approval as reasons for war and the pope bless those actions who fits the church plans, that's the way the papacy and christian nations support each other.

You want to divorce? You need the pope annulment. You want a big coronation ceremony with the pope blessing the new king? Ask for the pope. You want a Cardinal for your nation? The pope is the one who could bless a Cardinal for your nation in a ceremony in Rome.
All those events are great opportunities for RP, making the game more interesting.

Of course if the pope is a moron starting to command christian nations what to do and excommunicate those who do not obey, if he don't have enough support, the armies of those insulted nations will march to Vatican and overthrow the pope, because there is no other way to suspend the pope.
It was the case of Petrus Secundus, it was the case of Gregory, both chased away from Vatican by big armies.

James wrote:

QUOTE:

Of course if the pope is a moron starting to command christian nations what to do and excommunicate those who do not obey, if he don't have enough support, the armies of those insulted nations will march to Vatican and overthrow the pope, because there is no other way to suspend the pope.
It was the case of Petrus Secundus, it was the case of Gregory, both chased away from Vatican by big armies.

Ah, suddenly we choose to be historically accurate again. Interesting.

James ... is that not what your nation is doing? England wants money, and will associate with heretics or even destroy Rome to get it? You are not the Pope, but what makes you any different than the Pope as you have described him hypothetically right here?

If you want to play out the Reformation in 1043 instead of the 16th century then be my guest, but you will do it without Redrick's future sons or daughters.

Good luck to you and your money gathering in RP. I pray you can see the consequences of your decisions in KH in the future.


(note: I speak only for myself)

Dear Redrick Fieraas, every player is entitled to have an opinion, but still Constantinople is not Rome, while Petrus Secundus and Gregory I mention it they was in-game popes.

About the rest of your accusations, not related to the subject, do not make sense either.


Feel free to continue your personal crusade against the player James, even this is not the purpose of the game.

Redrick Fieraas wrote:

QUOTE:
If you want to play out the Reformation in 1043 instead of the 16th century then be my guest, but you will do it without Redrick's future sons or daughters.

Everyone who thinks they can do better can theoretically present their candidacy (or have their candidacy presented by the appropriate representative), if and when we get papal elections rolling.

QUOTE:
Good luck to you and your money gathering in RP. I pray you can see the consequences of your decisions in KH in the future.

The money gathering RP was mostly me. When you got right down to it money was one of several important motivating forces, particularly money owed, but not paid. I prefer to write that kind of RP, rather than writing about war for the love of blood and battle, brrr. I've got no problem with others adopting that writing style, but that's not for me.

James wrote:

QUOTE:
but still Constantinople is not Rome,

Uhh ... Okay?


James wrote:

QUOTE:
Feel free to continue your personal crusade against the player James, even this is not the purpose of the game.

My what? Jamie, if I had a "personal crusade" against you then I would leave Antioch and join the Papal States or Aragon. I don't think you are worth my time.


Bella doesn't like war RP but plays a war game?
You're free to do what you want. But I'm not going to give you a standing ovation for it.

As someone who has RP'd since the late 90s, I have more experience than I would like watching other people go out of character both on their "player" and while off topic. To be frank, we wouldn't be having this conversation about the Papacy right now if that scene Bella wrote up had not taken place. That's not RP, that's OOC manipulation and 100% political BS.

If this conversation about the Papacy should continue, then this conversation should be administrated by someone that is not English or Iberian in KH. You let your IC and OOC emotions mix in and out far too easily.

Anyway ....
I'm done reading this thread. Don't expect a reply from me in the future.

This is getting a bit off topic, but -

Redrick Fieraas wrote:

QUOTE:
Bella doesn't like war RP but plays a war game? :blink:
You're free to do what you want. But I'm not going to give you a standing ovation for it. :dry:

Hey, why shouldn't I be allowed to focus and RP about those aspects of history that interest me most?

QUOTE:
The Middle-Ages..
A time full of history and tales.

Knights, lords and kings tried to change the
world for their purposes.

Fights, tournaments, battles, 53 nations
on a huge map of the Middle-Ages.
Weapons and armor, horses, your fiefdom-
adventure, glory, power and intrigues.

Knight's Honor offers you unlimited possibilities

Picking up what attracts me most - I can write about the rest of it, too, as needed.

But if anyone assumes that wars were fought for honour and glory and love of battle only and not for extremely prosaic and practical reasons, I think they are being unrealistic. Also I'd like to point out that it was bad business practice to kill knights in battle, whenever possible you captured them and sold them for ransom.

Anyone who would like to have a war with me is most welcome to start a wonderful dispute with me in the RP boards, by the way.

And if a nation has a few people who love war and a few people who enjoy the more civilian aspects of life, I think the nation will end up with an acceptable mix of history for the purposes of this game.

Back to the papal elections, when are they starting?

Redrick Fieraas:
James wrote:

QUOTE:
Feel free to continue your personal crusade against the player James, even this is not the purpose of the game.


My what? Jamie, if I had a "personal crusade" against you then I would leave Antioch and join the Papal States or Aragon. I don't think you are worth my time.

It's Castille not Aragon . Get it right !